Larry called me yesterday and asked me if I knew anything about not being able to catch largemouth in tournaments in certain lakes and ponds, and I said I don't know anything about it. He heard it from another fisherman that there are lakes and ponds that you can't catch largemouth as part of your limit. Larry called Peter B. at Inland Fishiers and asked him about it. Peter told Larry that the Dept. was looking at 8-10 lakes that you couldn't catch largemouth as part of your limit. These lakes have not been named as of yet. When this rule goes into effect, it will say on the back of our permits that catching largemouth are not allowed in these waters during a tournament. Also, anyone bring in a largemouth in a tournament that is on the list will be fined. As it looks now, we can fish tournaments as we always did, catching both smallmouth and largemouth but, be prepared for changes next year in what waters you can't fish for largemouth in during a tournament. 

He also talked with someone I know about this issue.  They (IFW) are getting ridiculous now.  Why would we not be able to catch largemouth in a tournament but could just go fishing and catch all you wanted?  Why are tournament fisherman getting the shaft from fish and game?  We are not the ones putting bass all over the place, but are getting all of the crap for it.  I agree that largemouth are not compatible with smallmouth in some lakes, but once they are established (however it happens) your not getting them out.  Just like they are not getting the smallmouths out of Moosehead.   I guess we are an easy target for IFW despite the money they get from us.

In my opinion, there is an underlying assumption by IFW and much of the general public, that Bass Anglers are the ones spreading invasive species throughout the state. Afterall, we DO have boats with livewells, we DO launch our boats in several ponds every year. This is not the traditional type of angling behavior Maine is used to.

I've been told at a meeting with Bourque/Boland that the reason for the no largemouth at weigh-ins is a "good faith" one by Bass Anglers...in which, buy "allowing" ourselves to be subjected to this idiotic rule we are showing the rest of the world that we are concerned and that we aren't the ones spreading largemouth about the state.

As far as Moosehead is concerned, IFW has done a poor job disguising the real reason for the ban on Bass Tournaments. They SAY that it is to limit the spread of Smallmouth outside of the Beaver Cove and Lilly Bay areas (tournament fishing will move them from where they were caught to where they were released). This reason shown as flawed when I asked them if there could still be CMR Tournaments (no transport of fish, whatsoever) and was told that the "Deputy Director" won't allow those either.

The real reason, of course, is that Moosehead Lake is a wild trout water and the IFW must be under extreme pressure to NOT appear like they are glorifying Bass Tournaments, and in some eyes, Bass Angling in general. The states own data indicate that there are more angling hours and money spent on Bass Angling than any other type of angling.

Personally, I think it is George Smith and his cronies that are up to this. As always, the needs of a few well connected individuals are taking precedence over the masses in Maine. I've met John Boland and Peter Bourque several times and was impressed at their level of concern for ALL sportsmen and their rights/abilities to pursue whatever game they choose, but they take their marching orders from higher up in the IFW foodchain. At that level, (tell me if I'm wrong, but their bosses are appointed, not hired?) the IFW employees are busy doing what every other government hack is doing..jockeying for a better position in government and/or a house lot close to the golg course on Plumb Creek's development.

I have personally spoken to several guides, business owners and the town manager in Greenville. Shortly after the IFW's decision regarding Bass Tournaments NOBODY I spoke with had any inclination that this was going on. In fact, most were kind of put off that it had happened. They saw it as a direct blow to tourism. I've got an article in the works so I won't go on and on here...

mc

Maybe the deputy director shouldn't be making decisions on fishing on Moosehead since he owns a large "camp" on the lake.  It is definitely a lot of politics involved in the IFW on all of these bass fishing regulation changes and bans on tournament fishing.  We might have livewells but they do get emptied at the weigh in and it is a big violation to have fish in them if your just out fishing.  How many bass fisherman have the wardens caught transporting live fish in a livewell off a lake or just out fishing?  We need to stand up to this crap or we are going to get steamrolled with BS regulations and rules that will make it hard to even have a tournament.

"Maybe, the deputy director shouldn't be making decisions on fishing on Moosehead since he owns a large "camp" on the lake".


THERE!!! is the reason why we can't hold tournaments on Moosehead. This deputy director was probably at his camp with some "out of state" VIPs, and all of a sudden, bass boats are racing up lake making all sorts of noise first thing in the morning. I won't beat a dead horse, so I"ll leave it at that....

Mike, you are correct, it was Peter Bourque that Larry talked to. And, you are right about him. I have talk to Peter for many years about tournament stuff and he is very helpful and always a pleasure to deal with. I can't agree with you more about your thoughts on WHO'S to blame. S#*T ROLLS DOWN HILL.... It's the little guys at the bottom who have to try and explain to us why these rules come out without making their bosses look bad. The IFW needs to come up with a web site that they can post their agenda's to meets, so we can see what's going on and have a chance to comment on the issue. We are a "wealth" of knowledge for them, from guides to sporting camp owners and all the people who fish around the state. Who does the fisheries ask for help when they want to do sampling of some sort, or check how the fish are doing in a certain lake or pond? US... Now, with little warning, we are going to have more "rules" against us tournament fishing crowd because somewhere, somehow, someone put largemouth bass into waters that the state is going to deem as "NOT NATIVE" to the waters. There are "trophy waters" where you can't keep a bass of either unless it is over 18 inches. So, if largemouth are in one of these "trophy waters" and it's on the list of waters that they are not catchable during a tournament, why have a tournament on it at all. Lets hope something changes.....

When I made my lodging reservations at the Greenwood Motel a few weeks back the gentleman on the phone asked if I was coming up for the annual bass tournament.  I replied "sort of....IF&W in their infinite wisdom has decided that we can no longer hold tournaments on Moosehead but a bunch of us were still coming up to spend money in the area and fish non-competitively for bass anyway".  You could just about hear his jaw hit the floor.  He couldn't believe IF&W would do this and according to him, he had no idea they decided to stop bass tournaments on the lake.  He was SHOCKED!!!!

It's clear to me that SOMEONE pretty high up has IF&W's ear because it sure as heck NOT the lodging and store owners refusing our money  or our business.  Last year they were VERY HAPPY we were there and hoped we'd come back this year.  In fact, I personally spoke with the owner of the Beaver Cove Marina last year and he expressed an interest in hosting/sponsring a bass tournament from the marina.

Not sure what every one else is doing but I know both myself and Gary LeRoy have personally contacted our respective Representatives asking them to look into this issue.  Initially, my Rep., Rep. Carey from Lewiston, seemed interested but I have not heard anything from him since early February despite asking on two separate occasions for an update on his progress.....I guess I'm to believe that there is none.  I'll remember that come re-election time don't worry.  I'm not sure what progress, if any, Gary and his Rep. have made regarding this issue.

This isn't going to go away on it's own people.  It has started with Moosehead and a handfull of others but I can assure you that if we let this go by the wayside and do nothing now, you'll start seeing more lakes on the list and eventually, they will ALL BE CLOSED TO BASS FISHING.  I hear a lot of complaining from a lot of people on this issue but VERY LITTLE action.               

Sorry...forgot to sign my name to the above post.

John Heutz

        The reason we are complaining and not acting is this.... WE, as a bass fishing community are being "sucker punched" by someone high up in the IFW service, OR someone who has a lot of pull in that area. WE, do not hear anything about these up and coming "rule changes" until long after they are made into the NEW rules. When your getting blind sided all the time, it's hard to fight back, and especially when we don't know WHO is responsible for these actions. When I first heard about the "no tournaments" on Moosehead, I heard it was because the people up there DID NOT want a bunch of bass boats tearing around their lake, NOW, I see that is not the issue at all, but a miscommunication of WHO doesn't want us up there. My apologies to anyone offended by my remarks on a previous post about Moosehead not wanting our money. I just can't understand why no one in the IFW bothered to inform the town and business's that there will not be anymore bass tournaments on Moosehead. Does QUIMBY have anything to do with the Moosehead area???  SOMEONE needs to be held accountable for this... I still say that the state needs to set up a web site with meeting times and agendas, so we can at least have our say on these matters, and stop this "blind side" effect that has gone on to long. We need to be heard about these matters BEFORE they have meetings about them (it seems behind closed doors). I didn't hear a thing about all the new rule changes about bass UNTIL they showed up in the new 2008-2010 edition of fishing laws, did you???  All I'm saying is that it would benefit BOTH parties knowing what is going on and what each think about it. Mike has set up a great site for us to share information among bass fishing groups, and we can all help each other by putting up any information that we may hear about. I thought the state was supposed to check here every Thursday to see what questions we might have, are they doing that Mike??? If they did, I would take that as a "peace offering" that they are interested in what we have to say, and we could work together on issues. If not, well, we have our answers and the problems won't be settled. Lets all keep an eye on this folks, as John said, we are loosing ground, and it will only get worse if we let it.....

I know what you're saying Dave but I've found that over the years of being involved with legislative issues and the Federation, several years ago, that the only time most people really get angry is when things have reached crisis levels, directly impact them personally or when any sort of action was too late. 

I know I've been guilty time to time of getting busy with life and not paying attention to the fishing or outdoor related issues the may be coming up in the next legislative session...who knows....maybe these issues have already been through the public comment phase?......I don't know.  Of course on the other hand, it really seems like these rules are being made behind closed doors....perhaps that is the very nature of a "rule" vs. a "law"...."rules" may not need approval or are subject to public comment.  It seems to me that at the very least, IF&W should be meeting with the major players in the state when it comes to bass fishing tournaments.  I know several of us met with them a while back and I thought there was supposed to be regular dialog between us.  Several members of the Federation, TBF, NEBA, AC Maine, I think Mike was there as well.  To my knowledge, we've not been invited to meet since. 

A few years back I know Eric Low was really good about letting people know, via e-mail,  what was coming up legislatively with anything that was related to fishing...not sure if he's still doing that.  I know back then, his notices were VERY helpful in keeping people posted on new developments.

I can tell you though that last night after posting here, I wrote my Rep another letter asking for verification/clarification regarding your original post that started this thread.  If I get a response, I'll be sure to post it.

I'm at the point now where I'm ready to say to heck with these idiotic laws/rules.....catch me if you can.  I understand that society could not function effectively with out them but this is getting ridiculous.  If it's not IF&W making up these idiotic rules telling us where, when and what we can/can't catch based on junk science or because someone has a hair across their behind; its our local government charging me a shade under $100.00 to register my boat....things are getting way out of hand.  All I want to do is fish a few tournaments every once in a while and pass along the joy of bass angling to my kids like my father and grandfather did with me.  Why do things have to get so complicated?

From what I understand, this is what the situation is:

IFW was getting hammered on from who I presume are lake front property owners and the like about "all of the illegal fish introductions" occuring throughout the state. These aren't limited to largemouth, but include pike, smallies, different bait species and even the big ugly goldfish that were confiscated from the pond of a Chinese resteraunt a couple of years back.

I think they were looking at what they are dealing with with the lawsuits over lynx and bear baiting and trying to see if they could get proactive, at least in a public relations kind of way, to head these expensive situations off at the pass, so to speak.

The way John Boland and Peter Bourque explained it to me, was that to many people (I'm assuming these are the ones doing the complaining) Bass Anglers were the likely culprits (either purposely or accidentally) for many of the introductions of invasive fish and plant species. I was told that it would look good in the public's eye if we were to appear like we were taking steps to police ourselves. I know that IFW making these rules up doesn't qualify as policing "ourselves" but I think they think it somehow placates the non-Bass Angling public, and I'm sure it does.

IFW thinks that the public thinks that WE are spreading largemouth around so we can fish for them in tournaments. If we can't fish these "new largemouth waters" then an impetus the spread them to our favorite waters has disappeared. Perhaps the public sees that the state is doing something to curb a part of this issue.

It isn't turning out to be a pretty situation. I've asked John Boland to register and participate in the disucussion and/or outline a way that I can deliver him commentary seen here. I sent him an email and left him a voicemail today. I'm not sure how "net-savy" he is or isn't, but he's people savy so I expect that he'll figure out that we need to have his input....even if it is another one of those meetings in Augusta.

Mike,
       that sounds like a step in the right direction. If you or we can get someone's attention from the IFW dept. to at least "TALK" with us on here about this issue, or any other ones that come along, maybe they can shed some light on the subject and help with what is "fact" and what is not. You know the story...tell one person something, and when it reaches the tenth person, the words have already started to change and the story takes on a new meaning. We need someone from the IFW to put it in words on here for all of us to read, that way, we all know at the same time what is going on.


       

Well...I expect to hear from someone soon. I sent Mr. Boland an email yesterday requesting his input on our discussion and also asked him to place a link to mainebass.com on the IFW website. The link has appeared, so I know he got the email.

That's a start..... I guess we'll have to see where it goes from here. Thanks for getting your web site added to the IFW's site, that will at least or hopefully get some people interested in looking this way.  Also, I posted on the MBFN site this morning to get them involved as well. Hopefully, this will set off an alarm and they may be able to "persuade" them (IFW) not to make anymore changes WITHOUT some input by us.

Dave, the state had mentioned this largemouth restriction during a meeting I attended at IFW, also, there is some info regarding this in the article I wrote called "2008 Tournament Draw Overview"...or something to that effect. You can go to the front mainebass.com page and find it on the right.

These restrictions are not going to stop the illegal stocking going on.  Tournament bass fisherman are most likely not stocking pike all over the place, moving largemouth bass to lakes that dont have them or even moving aquatic vegetation around.  I hate to catch a pickerel when I'm fishing let alone a pike.  We are just an easy target for IFW and I believe the reason no one hears about any rule changes until after the fact is that IFW is not going to discuss it with us or allow discussion/comment on what they want to do.  If they wanted to change something like salmon fishing rules on sebago without any discussion/comment I wonder how that would go over.  Until the warden service actually catches someone doing an illegal stocking and makes an example out of them, its going to continue.  I can only imagine how these selfish, thoughtless, ignorant "fisherman" justify putting pike or largemouth into lakes that don't have them.

Things like this that come down is why the governor's cup is so important. It would be interesting to see the lakes that they have in mind

Well, from what I've heard from IFW, you can start with Umbagog and Wassookeag. John Boland, Peter Bourque and Biologist Rick Jordan have indicated that the deciding factor will be/is/are "Lakes that IFW have recognized Largemouth Populations in 2000 or after". This doens't neccerarily mean that the Largemouth weren't in the lake prior to 2000, but simply that IFW RECOGNIZED there were established populations at or after this time.

I made the argument, at least for Wassookeag, that there must have been Largemouth there prior to 2000, since I caught a 5-11 in 2003, but it makes no difference.

Personally, I think a more fair way of doing it would be to say something like.."these are the lakes we KNOW have Largemouth in them, any lakes discovered to host Largemouth populations from here on out will be subject to the "No Larry Policy".

John Boland just gave me a call. He explained that he has had numerous requests for his/IFW's participation from people all over the state who run similar message boards. He very politely and professionally told me that he cannot commit to being able to log on, read what we have to say and then replay. Basically, if he did this for us he'd feel obliged to do it everyone and he simply cannot make that type of time committment. I can see exactly where he was coming from. He DID agree to read any email I sent him and answer any question I asked him in the best timeframe possible.

I forwarded him this entire discussion the other day and he went to his email and found it. I'm sure he'll weigh-in on the issues we are discussing as soon as he can.

to me IF&W by doing this is saying tournament fisherman are responsible for illegal introductions in these lakes.  Them saying this is a Good Faith thing to help public perception of us looks more like proof for the ones that believe we do.  If IF&W didnt think we were responsible they wouldnt be regulating it.

I hear you. At the very least, I think they are trying to placate the perceived public opinion that tournament anglers are behind some of the illegal introductions...and who's to say that they aren't. We are just a slice of public. In general though, I think they recognize that Bass Anglers are probably the most "resource conscientious" people out there.

Starting from the year 2000 is definitely arbitrary and seemingly not going to be used everywhere since in the case of Moosehead's smallmouth IFW admitts they have known they were in the lake since the 70's.  Maybe they feel some of the organizers of last summers tournaments on Moosehead had some serious planning going on back in the 70's.  Is IFW going to stop all pike derbys or tournaments for pike on the lakes with pike introductions?  How about the muskie tournament up North?  It definitely looks like someone or some group is pointing a big finger at tournament bass fisherman and pushing for unreasonable restrictions that don't make sense.

I think the date of 2000 was what they decided to use for the Largemouth issue (wheras clubs wouldn't be able to weigh in Largemouth in tournaments in these lakes).

Good point on the pike derbys, but I think the nature of derbys (kill tournaments) make them desireable as far as IFW is concerned.

As you know Mike, John Boland said he would gladly respond to any questions that arose from MaineBass.com and so far he has.
John and Peter Bourque told us back last winter that the Moosehead issue was not open for any discussion.This was, as you know, not of their doing. The original position of the IF&W was that a tournament would transport bass all over the lake. However, that position would allow for a CMR event.  Peter left our meeting to run it by the deputy commissioner, Paul Jacques.
Peter returned saying the deputy commissioner said no! While a CMR would be permitted under the stated reason for not having a regular tournament on Moosehead, it would not address the 'social' issues.
The 'social' issues is a synonym for 'political'.
There are, in fact, many who oppose bass tournaments and even bass fishing on Moosehead. Check out the letters in "The Northwoods Journal". They feel their sacred brooktrout are being hampered by the bass and bass fishing. Funny thing.... these same folks don't support a 'Catch n' Release' position on these fragile, self-sustained brookies they're so concerned about.

We, as bass fisherman have to get our sh*t together. Check out just how much has gone south in NH while the bass clubs fight each other over the Federation/Federation Nation knittwitt battle. Things are truly bad there and will be here soon unless we get together.
Bourque and Boland are not the issue here, they are our advocates.
Address questions to them here and they will be answered. (unless it's regarding Moosehead)

What I would like to see or hear, is a rock solid reason for WHY 2000, and WHY now......... Why is it OK to go out and fish for largemouth in these certain bodies of water any other time then during a tournament. WHO determined that date and under WHAT guidelines is this being based on?   

It would seem the who is IFW and someone believes that tournament bass fisherman are moving largemouths around in order to fish for them in tournaments.  Are we?  I would hope not but in reading other posts at some sites nothing would surprise me.  Some small ponds around our area that used to only have smallies in them now have largemouths in them and there are no tournaments on them.  Evidence to me that recreational bass fishermen or camp owners themselves are doing the dirty work.  We are the only group that they (ifw) can place blame on and also put restrictions on.  Averege joe that is really doing the bucket stocking couldn't care less and won't be affected by any and all rules, regulations etc.

I don't believe bass tournament organizations are being blamed for illegal stocking is the issue here. It is felt that it is in bad taste to be holding fishing events for illegally stocked fish. It is a celebration, if you will, of the bass' existence in the body of water. There are a certain powerful few that have had their demands answered on this.
Because we, (tournament fisherman) have been self absorbed and far from united as a group, it was forced thru w/o any real debate by the deputy commish.
Mainebass.com is supposed to be the sounding board for all the different affiliated/non-affiliated clubs in Maine.
Again, the Moosehead issue is not open for discussion.... so....
The only way to change this IMO is a e-mail/letter writing campaign to the deputy comish.
This all went down in Dec. Where was everyone then? Has this ever been addressed at the Federation or Federation Nation meetings?

You all make great points but until we as bass fishing people stand united there will more changes to come and not for the better but for the worst. Dave's right that by the time we hear about the changes they have already been made LAW!!!

I believe this...as Ken said, "organizations" ARE NOT being blamed, but BASS FISHERMEN are.... As far as not being able to fish tournaments for illegally stocked bass... "ALL BASS IN THE STATE OF MAINE WERE ILLEGALY STOCKED"!!!!! So again, why start with the year 2000, and why now??  We can come up with thousands of if, And's and maybes, but until IFW can give us a solid reason WHY on this issue, it should not be made into a rule or law. AND, if this is made into law, it will only hurt the bass clubs, as I dought any "major" body of water will make it on the list, so, will "ALL" bass clubs get a reduction in the amount of money they need to spend on permits for this??? If they can only fish for "HALF" the fish in the pond, I think it's only fair to charge "HALF" the price of a permit to fish it. If this doesn't happen boys, there is going to be a HUGH problem in getting permits for the waters that are not on that list. EVERYONE will be fighting for them.

Well, I heard about this largemouth thing almost 2 yrs. ago. I also heard about Moosehead before it was made public but as I mentioned, it was not up for debate. I received the official statement from the DIF&W and had it posted here on MaineBass.com There are a number of other changes that have been proposed that, if we don't change some of our behaviors, will become rules.e.g. 8 O'clock take off times because of the noise.

Actually, they introduced to Maine legally in 1865, Phillips Lake. There were, at that time, no rules against transporting them anywhere.
They were illegally stocked in Moosehead in the late 70's.

ACTUALLY....

IFW's own information indicate:

"Smallmouth bass are not native to Maine; they were first introduced in 1868. Cochnewagon Pond, Phillips Lake, Sebasticook Lake and Cobbosseecontee Lake were among Maine’s first waters to receive smallmouth bass. The bass for these introductions were obtained from New York waters."

and..

"The first largemouth bass introduction in Maine probably occurred incidentally with planned introductions of smallmouth bass during the late-1800’s. The first recorded largemouth introduction in this state was in Forbes Pond, Gouldsboro in 1897. Some of the other large lakes where largemouths were first successfully established were Great Pond and Messalonskee Lake, both in the Belgrade Lakes Region.
Most introductions of largemouth bass during the early 20th Century were made by the Maine Department of Inland Fisheries & Wildlife using bass reared at a federal hatchery. Over half of Maine’s total largemouth bass introductions have been made since 1954. The fish for more recent authorized stockings have been obtained from Maine’s lake and pond bass populations."

AND...

"data from the Department’s summer 1999 Open Water Fishing Survey (Paterson, et al, 2001) found that bass ranked highest of all Maine sportfish in three important areas:
1. largest number of anglers,
2. most angler-days of use,
3. most frequently caught species."

mc

Thats awesome info Mike,
                                    sorry for the mistake guys...

As of today: According to the DIF&W, "The List" has not yet been officially formed yet,  there will not be any decision on this in the near future on this and it will be discussed before there are.
As I've reported many times, the Moosehead issue is not open for discussion.
We, as a group, could change that, but it's a political issue and thats the road to take for change.
Ken Hoehlein
MaineBass.com

There will not be any further restrictions this year and there is a chance the idea of adding more lakes to the list may never proceed according to the DIF&W, 07-31-08.